Cistern
 

The new place I am moving into has county water, has a deep well.
The county water runs about $50 per month and is by far the hardest water I have ever encountered.
The well on the property, pumps pretty much the same water, really hard. Also the well is deep, I figure it would take between 1 and 2 MwH per year to pump all out water.
So I am considering rain water catching.
It would provide soft water, then I figured if the rain water is too funky tasting with out minerals I could always pump in some well water.
Obviously I will be filtering and treating the water with UV and a little choline.

We are in the same boat. The house we just got has city water and it’s hard.. the house originally had a cistern that is still in tact under the sun room. It’s dry and the pump is still there.. it’s on my list of things to do to get the down spouts hooked back up and get it running again. Our water bill has averaged about 35 a month so far.

35 to 50 really isn't that bad, but when you factor in a good water softener system will run up to $2k installed, might as well go all most all natural.

Our city water/sewer bill runs $60-$65/mo. Little of the charges are actually related to the volume used, most are related to the meter service charge, and taxes.

Keep in mind, if your toilet waste disposal is not on site, the water authority is likely levying some of their charges toward waste disposal, as a ratio of the volume of water metered. They won't appreciate processing waste for water they didn't supply, just as they don't appreciate people dumping rainwater into the sanitary sewers.

I have a septic tank. I'm like 3 miles from city limits.

Yep I’m septic also..

This is me inching my way off grid.
First I have decided not to get natural gas, then I am cutting way back on electric usage, get the well going and harvest my own rain water, further reduce electrical use with gshp.
Get under 20kwh per day, cut off the service drop.
The only one I don't know that I can do is off grid power.

Because it's mandated for a certificate of occupancy? or because you're not sure you can generate and store enough to UV sterilize, use GSHP heating, and still stay under 20kWh per day?

Get some used Volt battery packs, and a nice array... Off-Grid is going to be the next "tiny-house" phenomenon, when people realize how much power the utilities have to "tax" the homeowner.

Total power going to UV should only be a several dozen kwh per year.
I didn't say I was going to use gshp for heating, I will likely use what ever I can get my hands on that will burn, wood, wood pellets, coal, some propane, it doesn't really matter.
If I was going to go off grid I would use good old fashioned lead acid forklift batteries.

The roof line runs north to south on most of the roof so I'm limited in the number of panels I can easily attach to the roof.
I won't really know for sure how much power I will need until I get the well and water up and going. Because when it doesn't rain I'm going to be pumping a lot more.

I totally agree. That's not so bad

LiFePO4 batteries have started to become about as cheap as good quality lead acid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cviyIIvBlto

I already have used LiFePO4 batteries and don't want to use them for several reasons.
1 they suffer really bad from numbing.
2 when charged when at below 20°F their capacity can be permanently damaged by 20%, the first time you do it.
3 higher temperature charge discharge cycles also damage capacity.
4 there are less battery charger options for lithium. There are none available in 48v. I know how to trick a lead acid charger to be really close but it's not perfect.

Then there is the problem that I can't order a 48v 1000+ amp hour battery bank.
I would probably really be looking for something at least in the 1500Ah+ range.

I found a sand pool filter on the property.
I hadn't considered using a pool filter to filter cistern water.
Any ideas?
Or a waste of time?

I guess it could work for the initial cleaning of water. Removing larger particles and things. Probably good enough for toilets and things like that. But I would filter more for potable

I didn't think it would make the water safe to drink.
I was thinking more along the lines of a clarifier, something that takes the big chunks out with out having to buy a filter.
Still going to use charcoal, UV and chlorine to make it potable.

Also I found another well on the property an 8 inch bore with no pumping equipment in it.
So it definitely looks like off grid water is going to happen.

Good find now with luck there is tasty water below waiting to be pumped out.

Makes me think a 12v well pump would be nice and help to keep the PV / battery system simple

You shouldn’t need chlorine with uv and filter. I’d like to keep ALL chemicals out of my water.. my plan is 3 pre filters and then uv. It’s pretty common for cistern filtration. After of course the pre filter from the gutters aka first flush.

Can a 12v pump even lift 200 to 300ft?
Wells here have to be really deep.
I will need at least a 3/4hp submerged pump pumping to a non-pressurized tank and that might only get me a few gallons per minute.
I will likely go with a 1hp pumping to an atmospheric tank so I can get 5 to 10 gpm.

I would consider solar powering the well pump since it's a 500ft run from the house to the well.
To power a 1hp pump off 240v it would only need 12ga wire. But that's still a lot of 12ga wire.

Humor me Im thinking you could lower a fishing line with something on it to check for the water table.

Must be some nice DC well pumps in use by off grid people ,I spotted this 12/24v $80 Seaflow thats rated down to 230 ft on 24v

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1500_.jpg

Description
This solid diaphragm style pump structure is simple and small, making it fit well in many style of wells and water systems, it does not displace too much water.
Weighing just 3 kg, it is easy for most people to handle.
Installation is simple and fast. The "quick disconnect" feature allows the pump to be easily separated from the tube via the patent pending "Watertight-Gland" design. Quickly control the pump when maintenance is needed.
Even if your well runs dry or you need to test in dry conditions, no damage will be done to this durable pump!
The positive displacement, 3 chamber solid design diaphragm pump is run by a permanent magnet thermally protected motor.
The stainless steel fastener and 50 mesh stainless steel inlet screen are long lasting and non-corrosive.
The housing is also corrosion proof, for a pump that will last for years and years in many conditions and environments.
With a flow rate of 6 1pm, this is an efficient pump for most watering needs. The maximum lift is 230 feet, which is sufficient for most wells and situations.
1.6 gpm (Gallons per Minute) flow rate
solid diaphragm structure
230 ft maximum lift
100 ft maximum submersible depth
solar power possible
3 kg weight
stainless steel fastener
stainless steel inlet screen
orange color housing

The well I have is probably at least 200ft deep, could be 300ft deep. I doubt the water level is much less than 200ft, according to farmers and the well service around here.
Next chance I get I will be going out there with my nylon string and long tape measure and measure total depth and water level. If it's 300ft deep there could be up to 100ft of water in there. But I doubt that there will be that much.
I going to be planting something like nut trees that will need to be watered and will need a lot more than 1 or 2 gpm.

That little pump probably only makes 2 lpm at 200 feet so it would be good for a thirst quencher or light duty use. I think it runs on 80 watts.

This below pump has better performance and runs on more wattage

Kary 400 Feet Head 3.5 Inches 24v 36v DC Brushless Submersible Solar Powered Water Pump for Deep Well, Max Power 860w, Max Flow 9GPM

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1500_.jpg

Dimension:
Total length: 25.6"
Max diameter: 90mm(almost 3.5")
Outlet port diameter: 32mm
Net weight: 5.8kg(12.8lb)
Gross weight: 6.4kg(14.1lb)

Installation
1. This pump is a solar powered water pump, 36v is ideal input voltage. The solar panels' power should be 1.5~2 times bigger than the pump. 2 or 3 pcs 12 volts batteries connected in series also can be power source.
2. Connect the pump to solar panels directly, if the total length of the cable between pump and solar panel is longer than 100ft, we strongly recommend 9 or 8AWG wire.
3. Safety rope or wire is very important for deep well pumps, because the safety rope or cable will be the only way to retrieve the pump from the bottom of the well, we recommend a good stainless steel cable rather than rope.
4. If your solar panel kit is not powerful enough and you don't want to add more, a couple of 12v batteries is a good option, they can help to hold the input voltage above the "low voltage cut off point", however, sufficient solar panels is still the best power source.

Hey I was probably looking at that same one on ebay last night. Well a 24v verson.
I looked at some 48v ones and they were expensive.

A lot of the smaller ones were designed to be hooked straight to a panel. I would have to have on demand and therefor powered by battery.
800+ watts is way too much the small charge controller I would be using.
So what I would do to keep from killing the batteries is use the DC output on the charge controller to power a contactor when water is needed.then when battery voltage drops below 11 volts the contactor won't close. Batteries only get slightly over drawn, not killed totally dead.

And once you know your system you will know you have say 3 hours of pumping ready and can use 2 1/2 hrs to play it safe.
That 36v version of the pump costs around $250 on Amazon

For that sort of distance, wiring loss is going to be a problem at low voltages. Do they make small 3 phase well pumps that can be run off a small VFD?

If I do solar the well house will have its own solar. So very short runs for DC, 500ft or so if I run single phase out there.

I have friends who collect rainwater for all their water needs at their off-grid Minnesota home. Rainwater Harvesting - A WebsiteBuilder Website

I will mass murder birds if I start getting bird poop in my water. But I have a hot shinny roof like on the MN water collecting Web page so it shouldn't be a problem.

Nice thing about well water is no bird poop it should be drinkable right out of the tap

My parents have been living on rainwater harvesting for a number of years now. They have had many many many issues and my dad has worked through them. He is a multi-disciplined engineer, so it is not a backwoods redneck system he has put together! My dad wrote a book on his system: https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Potabl...g+daniel+brown

If you are truly serious about doing this, my dad has consulted a few people on their installation, and is currently wrapping up a complete system installation now. PM me and I will give you his contact information.

He is currently re-writing his book with some major improvements that he has now incorporated, so I am unsure if you should order the book just yet.

The municipal water system in town is crumbling.
They fix a leak and where they fixed it starts leaking again a few days or weeks later.
They have had 2 large street flooding water main blow outs just this year that I know of.

Well water is nice but it's very hard here. It turns dishes in the dish washer white with minerals.
And to add 40 to 60 operating psi in top of water colum pressure and I'm looking at spending up to 2 mega watt hours per year just pumping water, just for me and my wife, not watering anything.

Going off grid
 

Buy or build a CHP system. Water cooled diesel engine driving a generator. If you can, do it with belt drive to mains alternator, add a 24V alternator to directly charge batteries, and run the cooling water through your radiators and to heat domestic water. Belt drive also means that you can run the engine well below rated RPM (you will probably need an electronic speed controller though). An exhaust cooler will further reduce waste heat, as would a turbine on the exhaust to drive a 2nd 24V alternator. I intend to drive a brushless DC motor of the type used in hobby drones*. I have something similar, but I want to add an electric heater in the water circulation to get the temperature up more quickly. The more heat that you can use, the more efficient the whole system is. I estimate that I am getting 90% efficiency.

* these motors are rated by power and KV, KV is the RPM per volt (or volts per RPM !). In this scenario, RPM will depend largely on how much current is allowed to flow. Make sure that you get the permanent magnet variant for use as an alternator. You will also need a 3-phase bridge rectifier that will handle the current. The power that these motors can produce is phenomenal.
APS 4260S Sensored Outrunner brushless motor 100KV 1200W

With the water being hard rain water sounds more appealing.

I like the idea of a underground storage tank and DC pumps to get it out.
With it being underground it stays temperate to avoid making hot water in the summer and ice in the winter.

I would definitely add a large aerator / bubbler to the tank

Some Ozone o3 can be added to via a bubbler to provide sterilizion. Ozone has a Super oxidation effect that sterilizes


People drink ozone water , (cautiously) for its health benefits but it can burn tissue if in high concentrations.

I look at it as a disinfectant not a health drink

At some point I would like to have a stationary backup 1800rpm, liquid cooled kubota diesel generator . I have even been looking for an old timey cast iron radiator to put in the house to cool engine coolant. The only exhaust turbines proven to work are turbo chargers. A turbo charger on a diesel engine will improve fuel economy by 10% to 20%. For 1L kubota I would use a K03 turbo or RHB21 turbo.
I am actually planning on turbo charging my 2cyl 700cc kubota tractor, I will know for sure which turbo to use after this.
For stationary engine exhausted coolers I was going to use large diesel truck EGR coolers since extracting heat from exhaust is precisely what they were designed to do, no need to reinvent the wheel.

Right now I have 2 generators. Both 3600rpm gas guzzlers. One is 7kw and the other is 17.5kw.
To get lower voltage DC I was probably going to take a GM DR44G alternator and convert it to external rectification and excitation and power it with a Honda GX200 engine.

My highly proprietary 1.6kw industrial/municipal UV tubes generate ozone. Ozone's half life is about 90 minutes. The peak spectrum is 256nm, think of it like the radiation that keeps on killing.
I was planning on running a bubbler when the UV system is powered up to increase the amount of ozone.
It uses so much power I will not run it all the time, just as needed, which is still to be determine.

I already have the perfect spot picked out for the tank.

That uv system sounds like a behemoth being made for a municipal water supply. Do you have photos or whats the model ?

It should take of your needs plus some

Also 1600 watts of UV light would likely fry the eyes out in short order as they warn you not to look at the 25w uv bulbs , be careful with it !

When I power one of these tubes up to full power in atmosphere any bugs that fly near it die or have their wings singed off.
They are used to sterilize 250 to 300 gallons per minute with clear water.
These tubes are made by atlantium, it there 155mm tubes and they cost around $700 new.

I looked into the tubes they are something , the newer model had a safe viewing port under a flip up cover quite scientific looking being made of stainless and quartz.

Beastly too

I only can get ahold of the tubes. The full reactor setup is a few hundred thousand dollars.

In many parts of the country, well water contains lots of agricultural chemical residues and by-products, and also traces of antibiotics that enter the water system through septic systems. Rainwater sounds good as an alternative.

You know things are out of hand when farms turn toxic and poison the area.

They obviously need to change practices Im lucky being in the mountains our water is from rain water collected in small mountain lakes

I'm going to get the water tested first.
Plus my tremulous over kill UV system has the power to decompose complex organic molecules then the ozone will oxidize whatever is left. Not to mention what it will do to bacteria, protozoa and fungi.